21. INTERIOR DESIGN WITH JENN ORR OF STUDIO RED DESIGN

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

clients, Jen, contractor, people, design, tile, house, project, interior designer, hire, designer, money, project management, color, point, piece, remodel, job, work, concept

SPEAKERS

Rob, Intro, Adrian

Intro  00:02

Welcome to the get rich, slow podcast. This is the stuff we and our expert guests wish we knew a decade ago to get the most out of our financial life will provide you with insight into wealth building activities and practices that can expand your net worth exponentially. get insight from top professionals who will reveal how to build wealth the long way, work smarter, not harder and identify your financial blind spots. With over 25 plus years of experience as licensed real estate professionals and a long track record of winning for their clients. Robin Adrian will teach you what it takes to be an everyday real estate millionaire.

Adrian  00:41

Hello, future millionaires and welcome back to the get rich slow Podcast. Today. I am April. I’m Adrian Shermer. As you all know, and my co-host, Rob Delevan. are here with me.

Rob  00:51

Good morning.

Adrian  00:52

And we are joined today by Jen Orr owner of studio red design and the director for the relevant contracting services. Hey, Jen. Good morning.

Rob  01:04

Good morning. How long? Jen, just to ask you a couple more questions. How long have you been in the design world?

01:13

I have been in design for about five years now.

Rob  01:17

And I believe you are an esteemed alumni of Seattle Pacific University with a bachelor’s in design. Is that right? Correct. Yes. Okay. And I’m sure the associated student loan debt to go with it. Like everybody else that went to private school.

01:36

Yeah. Talk about that.

Rob  01:40

We love it. Thank you for being our guest today. We have done a number of well, we recently did an episode on just a total design fail for a client. And it was one of these things where they put different kinds of floors in, they spent good money on floors, and just did it wrong. Like one was laminate one was really nice hardwood that was originally there. And just all of these, like, people don’t know what they don’t know. And they literally spend 1000s of dollars to make things not better. And it’s amazing. So, it was like, we have to have Jen, as our guest on our podcast, because she makes sure that these things don’t happen. And this, there’s this concept that interior designers are expensive or only for wealthy people, or, you know, the housewives of I don’t know, fill in the blank in Orange County, or like it seems a luxury item for sure. They pay for designers to be their friend that they go shopping with, right. Yeah, that’s not the real world. But we still have to deal with that. So, tell us a little bit about just kind of a typical approach give us like the Reader’s Digest of what you do, you know, when you’re when I throw up, you know, a messed-up house at you. And then we’ll just unpack this. And at the end of this 2030-minute episode, I wanted the audience to be able to have a grasp of what an interior designer really does. Why you’re so valuable. And frankly, at the end of the day, yeah, it’s way cheaper to have somebody that has the big picture vision and a plan and make sure we don’t make incredibly expensive mistakes.

03:49

Correct? Yes, yeah. So

Rob  03:51

I throw you a piece of junk. Ready, go.

03:56

First of all, I love the piece of junk. So, we’ll start there. So, when it comes to remodels, you know, I would say 90% of my job as an interior designer, is actually project management. And so, there is a small portion that yes, consists of the design aesthetic. But there’s so much involved in bringing all the pieces together that homeowners don’t realize or understand. So, when something when you bring me up a house that needs a lot of work done to it, it’s first breaking down all the things that need to be done, right and figuring out what where is it worth putting money into. So, what elements of this house is it going to be profitable for us to put money into and what areas just really don’t matter? So that’s the first step. is figuring that out? And then second, you know, we go into, okay, who can we bring in? So, this is where the project management piece comes in, who can we bring in to take care of all these items at the most reasonable price, that’s going to do good work, and get the job done. And so, one thing, when you’re hiring an interior designer, you’re also hiring all the laborers and contractors that are going to come in and do this work. So, you’re hiring a team of people that have already been vetted, you already know that they do good work, you already know that their price point is a good price point. And all of that all of that research and education has already been done for you. So, you don’t have to worry about you know, who’s coming into the work and all of that.

Rob  06:00

Okay, let me let me interrupt you, because I want to back up to step one first, step one literally looks like and I know this, just because, frankly, Jen is always lining these nine things out, and she’s saying, oh, I’d love to do all of these things. But the response always becomes, we know roughly how much things are going to cost. Jen really knows with her skill set. And from a real estate standpoint, and we’re making this assumption that this is to get a house ready for sale to maximize the value at some point, it doesn’t mean we’re selling it tomorrow, it could be mean, we’re selling it 10 years from now, but we’re trying not to do work multiple times in a row and waste money that way, right. So, you know, which is resources, which is finite. And that’s the whole point of building wealth is you want to be smart with the resources that you have. So usually, I’ll end up with after Jen and I and other members of the team walk through, we end up with basically a laid out, it usually ends up being an email, because we’re dealing with a client that says these are the things you have to do. These are the things we recommend you do. And these are the things that would be great, but you know, probably aren’t going to pay themselves back or are going to be less important, or they’re going to be something that maybe a buyer would want to do themselves, to customize and so on. And what ends up usually happening is, if you did everything all the way down to the third one, that’s that design that you know, goes on the cover of, you know, HGTV Chip and Joanna Gaines, you know, monthly magazine, right, like frills, crazy, beautiful, just incredibly like top dollar, but almost to the point, it gets ridiculous, like nobody lives that way. And you start putting in $1 in and you only get 50 cents, or maybe 25 cents out. But the basics that we say you have to do are obviously things like roof, and, you know, like making sure that the building envelope is not rotting away, right. You know, we don’t want water inside, we keep the water outside. But it’s things like you know, flooring and paint, and the cheaper things that you can do. But still, you get you know, a couple bucks out like, hey, let’s change out maybe we’re not going to change out the cabinets, but we’re going to paint them and do new door poles or, or handles or, you know, so like it’s having to do because you’re gonna get $2 out of it of value for every dollar you put in. Probably should do because you’re gonna get maybe up to maybe a little more than $1 out for every dollar in and then the third level is we going to make this so spectacular that yes, it might sell for top dollar, but it’s going to take six months and you’re probably not going to get the dollars out?

Adrian  09:04

Yeah, so ability.

Rob  09:06

And the beauty of that is, is since we work together on this, Jen, you will tell me No, I disagree. And that’s when we have our best conversations, or you should really consider

Adrian  09:21

to disagree. You consider them wrong.

Rob  09:27

I’m wrong a lot. But that’s the point is we work closely enough together that we can do that. And you know, the idea is, is we want to make sure that the mistakes are made on our side. Not you know, for example, Jen’s working on a house of mine right now. And it’s I don’t know. Are you ready to fire me yet? Yeah. What do you what do you think about that project?

09:58

No, it’s fun. It’s good. Good. Got contractors working there right now. But yes, I, it’s of no value to you, if I don’t share my opinion, right, that’s what you’re hiring me for is my opinion to say what I think is going to look good or not look good. So, my clients always have fun ideas of what they think, you know, might be really awesome. But one of the things that my how my brain functions is I am able to see the full picture end result. And a lot of people, they just, you know, they can’t think that way. They know what they like, they know what, you know, yeah, what they see, but they can’t see the end Final Project said and done right in their head. And so, you know, they offer suggestions, and I kindly and respectfully say, no, I don’t think that’s going to look so great.

Rob  11:01

So, Adrienne, there was we were having a conversation the other day about like, do you give someone 50 options? Or yeah. And like, like, give us give us that little like that insight into how you do that? Because, you know, otherwise, its paralysis analysis, right? Versus like,

Adrian  11:26

I can only imagine, like a trim piece, I would be like, oh, you know, like, cost to factor into. And there’s, what does that material like when you get it out on the object? And I just think there’s a lot of value in that. I mean, if you’ve ever tried to design out a project, it’s, there’s just options, especially these days, there’s just options, everything you could want is there. But is it worth it? Is it worth twice the price for one extra little, I don’t know, detail or something. And that’s where I think it’s really interesting. You got the knowledge and the experience. It’s not just an opinion, it’s an educated and highly experienced opinion. And that’s yeah, that’s what we need. That’s what we want everything. You know, it feels good. When you’re doing something, you know, you understand the subject its feet, it actually feels good, you literally get a little dose of dopamine when you do something that you know very well, right. So that’s why I think it’s fun to work with someone like you because you’ve got a better idea of how to compress all that data down to what I’m actually asking for.

12:21

Yeah. And that’s funny, because, you know, people think, oh, well, designers, they just, you know, they say this is how it should be the end. And I mean, school, they taught me this is the right way. Right, exactly. And that’s definitely not how I work with my clients. I like to present a design to them. And without a million options, and, and I get a feel of what they like first. And so, I let them bombard me with all the pictures from Pinterest and Google and wherever, whatever magazine, they find, bombard me with all the pictures, because then I have a feeling of what it is you like, even if you don’t know your design style, right? They can’t label it, they can’t name it, they can send me all the things, I can look at it, and then I get a feeling for it. And then I like to present them with something that fits what they like. And then what oftentimes happens is sometimes I’ll get you know, a client who questions something or says no, I don’t like that, or, and then I get to explain my reasoning behind, right. So, I get to dissect it and say, this is why I’m choosing to do this this way. This is my thought process. This is why I selected this. And usually, you know, not that I’m trying to coerce or convince my client, I’m just educating them on my process. Usually what ends up happening is at the end of that conversation, they say, okay, that makes sense. I totally understand that. Yes, that’s good. Let’s go that direction. And sometimes, you know, they still hate it, and we move on to something else, right, we move a different direction. But oftentimes, clients just need to know why I’m doing what I’m doing, or what the reasoning behind it is, or you know, what the process is, and when I’m able to explain that to them, then they get this sense of okay, that yeah, that makes sense. I’m tracking with you. I understand, you know, why you’re making those decisions, and let’s do it. So.

Rob  14:30

So, it’s, it’s, it’s like that buy in, I mean, frankly, across any especially high stakes service industry, right. It’s bought in which really what that represents is the trust. You know, like, oh, okay, I know in my head that Jen does this every day, all day every day and is the expert, but I still have my opinions, but they have to give have over, like, some of that control or trust in the sense of like, oh, this is why she’s the expert, I don’t have to be instead of them trying to be the expert and put the wrong kind of floors in and then have to pay for it twice.

15:17

Yeah. And a lot of what I do is peace of mind, you know, it’s okay. I think we like this, but we don’t really know, you know, if this is good or not. And then if I’m able to come in and, you know, redirect them, or say, yes, that’s a great decision, then it gives them that peace of mind of okay, we’re headed on the right track. And we know this is going to be good. You know, and a lot of times I tell clients, like, just send me all the things and I can say yes or no, yeah, I like that. No, I don’t think that’s going to work because of X, Y, and Z. And it just gives them peace of mind and making decisions because there’s so many decisions, so many details that are involved in the remodel process down too little, miniscule things that you don’t even know exist until you’re in the remodel process. And you’re like, what’s the Schluter? I don’t even know what that is. And you know, exactly. So, it’s just, there’s, there’s so many details that homeowners don’t even realize are there until they get into the project. And that’s what I’m there for, is to help them navigate all of that.

Rob  16:34

So, before we move to step two, which is the team of trusted contractors, and you know, a craftsman, and so on. Would you tell our audience what a Schluter is.

16:47

So, there’s this little piece of basically trim that goes around your tiling. So, if you’re tiling a bathroom, and you have your little niche pockets, where you’re going to put your shampoo and your razor and stuff like that in there and the edge when you have an exposed tile. It’s not pretty on the side, right? And so that Schluter piece, and there’s all sorts of finishes and colors and sizes that you can choose from

Adrian  17:19

the world of floaters.

17:21

floaters, yes, that you need to select to go that will go with your tile, right. And so, I was working on one project, and, you know, the contractors, they will just select whatever they think, you know, they think goes, and not every contractor has a great design I. And so I went to the client’s, like, I didn’t even know this was something that needed to be selected, you know, so they put this black Schluter on this white tile. And that can look good in some cases, if you’re doing high contrast, black and white, but everything in this bathroom was white, and then you have this glaring black piece of trim. And she’s like, I wouldn’t have chosen that. Well, she wasn’t even asked by the contractor. Right? And so, it’s just those little details

Adrian  18:13

that would be fun to replace too I imagined once that’s

Rob  18:16

the place. Yeah, by the way, we’re gonna tear out your brand-new shower. Yeah, yeah. And hopefully not break all the tiles, which you can’t get anymore.

Adrian  18:29

And this is not like sending the salad back. Like, this is pretty hard asked when you call them. Hey, by the way, can you redo almost everything for me?

Rob  18:37

Yeah. Gotcha. And, and by the way, he probably used the shooter that he happened to have on the truck, right? Because exactly used it. And it cost him no money. So yes. Which these are this is working with contractors. Yes, that’s a very pragmatic choice. Yeah, our contractors know that they better run that by Jen first.

19:02

Right. Exactly. And I like to tell my clients do, I’m your biggest advocate, you know, when it comes to working with your contractors, they’re there to do the work. And I’m there to advocate for you to make sure that the work is being done the way that we want it right, to your quality to the standards, you know, and a lot of times clients, you know, they might not have, you know, the voice or the understanding to know that you can tell your contractor like, no, that’s not okay. Or you didn’t do that right, or, yeah, you know, and you actually know

Adrian  19:39

what you’re asking of them, and you’ve got the relationship I got to say to this tile person knows Okay, well, that’s Jen. Jen is gonna hire me for the next tile project. Yeah, if we can make sure that these goes well, if you’re just talking to a contractor and they botch something, you know, you’re maybe you’re a Yelp review or whatever. And that’s it. They’ll never hear from you again. So right Is this This branching circle of trust that you have is kind of an important concept here?

20:06

Yes, very much. So. Yeah.

Rob  20:09

The, that. So, so going to, you know, the big step two, which is really that 90%, which is the project management and bringing in all of the people. And granted, there’s, there’s, I mean, we could lay all this out, you know, you got to go get bids, you got to figure out the right bridge project for the right contractor. There’s the concept of good, fast, cheap when you’re in the service industry, which is, you know, contracting, also pick two, you know, you don’t get three, sorry, good, fast, cheap, all three does not exist, especially in today’s market. But there’s all these concepts. But I think the core of that project management is when they hire you and say it’s 500 to a big project might be $10,000, to hire a designer, and project manager. But what happens is, in generally speaking, it’s not that expensive, but for the stuff that we do. But there’s this concept of people doesn’t necessarily want to hire the designer. But they’ll hire a project manager, and we’ve talked about this, and in the Delavan, contracting services, and as it incorporates with studio read, and all the design work that you do, there’s this concept of, okay, well, we can build for project management. And people don’t have a problem with that. But there’s just that, oh, designer, and it goes back to the initial part of the conversation is, oh, that’s just a luxury, we don’t need it. But when you bring in a contractor, the right contractor for that job. I mean, you were just telling me, I don’t know, in the last couple of days about a new painting contractor that you’ve used a few times now. And they’re just as good, and maybe a little bit better than one of the other contractors that we’ve used for quite some time. And their prices are similar. And their responses good. So, it’s like, whoa, okay, we might have just shuffled the deck and, and put, you know, that card over the next one, and you’re always doing that, because you have, you know, a dozen jobs going on at any given point. And, you know, John Q homeowner, they have one house one job. Yeah, so there’s this leverage this relationship, it’s, there’s a ton of moving parts here, but there’s incredible value, you might save 1000s of dollars, typically, on $100,000 job, you might save 10 $15,000, because you’re using the people that you have the relationships with, on the front end, and then on the back end, the job still gets done correctly. Right. So, like, there’s, it’s not just one like, oh, great, you, you know, renovated my house. And yeah, it’s, you hired a professional start to finish to do this a huge job. And there’s 100 different inputs that are hinge points that can add value. Right. So, they No, I don’t know. And it’s relationships. It’s advocate advocating, it’s, it’s actually knowing things that look good.

Adrian  23:36

Yeah, it becomes,

Rob  23:38

I mean, can you look at 50 colors or gray? I can’t. I mean, I know you can’t Jen, but 50 colors are gray and say 50 Shades of Grey? For the, for the readers in the audience. Can you say Oh, use number 12 or use number 27? I mean, you can, and you’ll give the client two options. Yeah, I’ll look at it and I’ll be like, no, no, no,

Adrian  24:01

you got finish, you know, and there’s math’s and their sentence and there’s everything in between. Yes.

24:06

It’s the last reasoning as you start chewing

Adrian  24:09

into a project like that. It’s like oh, man, there’s six more options and they’re not like separate you know, they’re like a layer Oh, and then what brand do you buy and then man it’s just there’s so many choices that go into it than just so I love it I love that you kind of condense it down into it seems like the client can kind of take on what they want to they have they insist on one thing you can design around such a thing where if they love Robert talked about this with another project that idea of like I love this super unique civilian blue you know insane unique you know, well don’t pay your whole house that color. People will and that sounds silly when I’m using an example like that but there’s a lot of in between examples that are just a bit off the shade or whatever that you know, make your house that don’t look right with the greenery around your house or whatever the houses next to you look like or I mean And that whole idea that a color can look different, depending on what color you put it next to is still, like I, my brain just spins, trying to understand, you know, you put a tile a color on something like brown or white, and it just literally changes shades percent. So, it’s like, it’s not even, you know, like you’re saying which shade is the right shape, which depends on what you’re putting it next to what’s gonna work with everything else is brilliant. So really,

25:28

at the end of the day, I mean, the goal is to give my clients a home that they love, right? But that, like we were talking about before, eventually, maybe not right away or whatever, that’s still gonna have real hold resale value, right, we want to be smart, we want to do smart design. But you know, also give the client what they want. And so, it’s that balance, and it’s that give and take, and it’s that compromise that is all a part of the process and the relationship between me and the client.

Rob  26:06

And to throw a wrench in there, then you also have to have do it in a way that fits within a certain budget. Yeah.

Rob  26:19

And so, you know, I know that I’m probably one of the more obnoxious clients that you have. Because of course,

26:28

I’ve worked with worse.

Rob  26:32

That’s so nice of you to say, Jim. But what happens is, the more somebody is in a certain industry that maybe has a little bit of crossover, like, you know, because of course, I’m looking at it, like, all I care about is value, value, value, right? And then I have my wife saying, but I like, and I like this, and I like this, and I’m like this, and I’m just like, dollars.

Intro  26:58

So, I mean,

Rob  26:59

you really have to be that psychologist of or therapist, I should say yes. You know, oh, you know, there’s that balance. And it’s it just it puts you in a position that for someone who’s not able or willing or has the experience to tackle that tough situation gracefully. Yeah, you know, it could really lead to, you know, the referral off to the marriage counselor, right?

27:29

Yes. Yeah, I often joke my second degree is in family and marriage counseling. You know, you’re dealing with couples and remodels are stressful. So, you have that heightened stress. I’ve been in the middle of a number of arguments between husband and wife. And it just, it’s just a part of the process, really. And so. Yeah, I should probably read some more books on marriage and family counseling.

Rob  28:02

I know firsthand, that you’re actually very talented in that area, too. So, it’s in figuring out how to have us not, you know, tear each other’s hair out. Right. Yeah. So, to sum up, and submit with somewhat of a level of brevity to not carry on forever, we’re looking at, I would say the value, you’re probably two to five times worth what you charge. Yeah. Is that fair?

Adrian  28:39

Give her project depends on the people who are doing it, maybe, but

28:47

right is of huge value. All my clients after working with them. They are so thankful for having me along in the process, because they do they get to those points where there’s so many questions, and they’re like, wow, Jen, what would I have done without you here helping guide me and direct me through all of these decisions? I don’t even know you know, and so there is huge value and along with saving money by avoiding mistakes, avoiding redoing things, making sure you’re selecting you know, things cost effectively in the right areas, all that saves you money, but, you know, time is money and peace of mind of you know, the less stress and knowing the projects being done, right. I mean, all of that is of huge value to my clients.

Adrian  29:46

Yep. Right. Especially we’ve got you know, the do it yourselfer stuff is very popular right now. You find a YouTube video to do everything but yeah. And do you? I assume you work with people who want to do some of the stuff themselves, right? I mean, it’s not about hitting up the contractor, it’s about reviewing the project and making sure you know, you’ve got all your boxes checked. But, you know, I’m sure our listeners kind of tune into this think and maybe we’ll get some specific advice. But really, truly the big picture here is hire a designer. That’s it. You know, it’s funny how often, the advice that Rob and I have here is pay money to this specific thing, but it’s about it’s about how you direct those funds and making sure that the money is working for you in the most absolute manner. And, you know, Rob, we had that example of that house, that was a costly mistake. And they saved money by not having a designer, right? They saved I’m using air quotes here, for those who are listening, saved money by not hiring someone to help them make this decision. But they didn’t in the real terms of like, net profitability of that because they did plan to sell the house. And when they did, they lost money on that decision. So, Jen, can you leave us with any big, like, Oopsies? Or, you know, hey, avoid this if you can, or where’s the best bang for buck? You know, in general, if a house is all out of date, where do you throw some cash?

31:11

Oh, wow. I mean, your bare bones are where you got to start at something is just completely outdated and crazy. You got to do the walls. You got to do the floors. You got to do the basics, for sure. Definitely first, so flooring and paint, right? Yes. I mean, I would love to. I would love to rip out every kitchen. But you know, that’s not always always doable.

Rob  31:41

Yeah, I love it. Well use and here’s the thing, a paint console, the color console. I mean, we’re talking, you know, a couple $100 Oh, yeah. And versus especially those di wires that are spending every weekend painting an entire house, which is not that uncommon. And they get halfway through and they’re like, I hate it. It looks just awful.

Adrian  32:07

Yeah. So, as you can understand, I remember I was younger, my brother painted his house, his room red. And it’s really cool when he picked it out of the store. But in the hallway, it was it looked like the murder room. You get in the hallway. There are glowing reds pouring out into the hall. And it was like, oh, wow, that even has an impact on other spaces. It’s spilling the colors spilling out. You can’t just have some Harlequin house where you know there’s these different shades everywhere. But people do that all the time with the best intentions because they have well that’s tonal match my TP or whatever it is that’s important to brown. So, I’ll get this wall color. And then they forget that their kitchens over there right next to it and all these open concept houses that we have now. So awesome. She’s so important to have someone like you on your side. So, take your mental pain. Mentally. Yeah,

32:59

don’t realize, yeah, like wow, why do I feel?

Rob  33:06

Because I think somebody’s gonna come into my room. Oh, well, let’s leave it there. Thank you, Jen for just giving us a little spoonful of your wisdom. You know, I need it personally. And hopefully this was valuable for our audience. You know, make good choices, people. Yeah, good. yeses,

Adrian  33:31

make good choices, lean on expertise and knowledge when you can. And, Jen, I hope some of our audience has the pleasure of working with you. But you’ve done a great job of explaining your value. I think so. Thank you so much for your time.

33:44

Yes. Thanks for having me.

Adrian  33:45

Thank you. All right, folks. We’ll catch you next time on the get rich slow podcast. Catch you next week.

Intro  33:51

Thank you for listening to the get rich, slow podcast. If you liked what you learned, please subscribe rate and review so we can grow wealth for even more families.